Why Hell Houses ususally suck... Anti-Gay Haunted House

[MacPhantom]

technically.... almost ALL of our halloween traditions have STRONG christian back grounds.. its this "new age" christian that isn't looking at hallowmas or the halloween day as a celebration..

I'm not so sure that's the case. Carving pumpkins definitely seems to be a violation of the Second Commandment. Costumes and "tricks" are firmly rooted in Pagan traditions. The mass consumption of candy is secular in nature.

Certainly All Saint's Day, celebrated on Nov. 1st, has strong roots in the Catholic tradition, a sect of Christianity, but the celebrations on the eve of that day don't seem to have any Christian backgrounds at all.

I don't think this means that a person who calls him or her self a Christian can't celebrate Halloween, in the same way that many Christians eat shellfish or wear clothing made of blended materials. But I can understand an interpretation of Christianity that finds Halloween and what we love about it to be antithetical to that particular system of belief.

The thing I find most fascinating about religion is that it is based on the premise that there is one objective truth, but every single individual has a different, entirely subjective view of what that supposedly objective truth is.

[adrian]

no no no you've got me all wrong.. what i said was very "blut and with no debth"

christians played a major role in the development of the american halloween traditions. like i said before, the tradition of trick or treating developed when the christians (who also enjoyed a good celebration) took some of the pagen (spelling) traditions and put their own spins to them.. halloween now is NOTHING like it used to be.. the handing out of treats can be traced back to christianity, the spanish holiday of the day of the dead, and so on and so on... yea halloween may have its roots settled in the old pagen/ druid era but christianity (as well as many others) played a major part into the developement of the holiday. even when america was being first explored and "personized" the harvest holidays were celebrated differenty (depending on the settlers).. until everyone began to mingle and mix... then the holdays began to mix.. some traditions stayed, others were forgotten, and some were made.. thus giving birth to what would be known as our American Halloween.

if you want to refer to the pagens and get technical... THEY didnt' even celebrate what we call halloween.. it was called hallowmas ( a 3 day celebration for the end of year/new year) all based around all souls day i believe.. sacrifices were made, costumes, yada yada yada

[MacPhantom]

I think we may be talking about two different things; Christianity as described by actions and traditions of Christians, and Christianity as described by biblical interpretation and the teachings of Jesus. Essentially, Culture and Religion. The line is easy to blur. There is nothing in any of the Gospels describing Jesus' birth which talk about candy canes, but they have become synonymous with the holiday celebrating his birth. Why? Because their inventor, a Christian, shaped them in the form of a "J". So can we say that candy canes, which aren't in the bible, are Christian?

The acts of Christians who incorporated Pagan traditions into their celebrations were an attempt to bring Pagans into the fold of Christianity, without them having to give up all of their own traditions. Culturally, this takes us down a secular path of blended tradition. To strict religious believers, however, this can be seen as a watering down of their religion.

What I'm saying is, I can see both sides. I understand how a person calling themself a Christian can enjoy celebrating all the cultural aspects of a holiday, not necessarily caring from which historical culture or religion a particular tradition comes. I can also understand a person calling themself a Christian rejecting those traditions which aren't derived specifically from the Christian religion, as outlined in the Christian Bible.

[adrian]

PAGAN... ok that's how you spell it lol sorry i'm ditsy today

yea we're talking about 2 different things
when i say christianity i'm not talking specifically about the religion itself but more as how the early christians celebrated the harvest lol now i know what we're both talking about

yea i'm speaking on "the traditions of celebration" and i believe you're speaking on "the outlook of the religion itself towards the holiday" hahaha
2 entirely different conversations lol ( i may have worded that all wrong.. please excuse me.. i don't have much time to think here at work when it gets busy haha)

2 good converstaions though

[NeverMore]

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I only have one thing to say about religion...

[MacPhantom]

Yep, I think we're in agreement, Adrian. And they are both interesting discussions to have. Philosophy is my specialty, but I love both history and theology as well!

Nevermore, while I agree completely with your diagram's simplified differentiation between Science and Faith, I would caution that Faith and Religion are not entirely interchangeable words. Judaism, for example, has a very strong tradition of questioning and considering articles of faith. The Episcopal Church, a sect of Christianity, has come under fire for its rethinking of the traditional view of homosexuality derived from the bible.

For some religious believers, faith trumps all, and your diagram holds true. For many, faith is used to fill in those last few gaps in the human understanding of existence, where an atheist like me would be content to just say "I don't know". Quite a few people would have a very miserable life if they had only the scientific method to try to answer the question "Why do good people suffer and die?", so faith can be a psychologically useful device..... when used in moderation......

[Corvus Kulde]

The pagan celebration most associated with our Halloween was Samhain (pronounced Soween). Outside of a few limited traditions the trick or treating thing is very much American. (of course we don't want to leave out the Germans who popularized many of the things we associate with H day) It's no stretch to see how many old world people had harvest celebrations and many of those old world people came to America.
The notions that have beaten American/Christianization and remain in the consciousness today seem to be the idea of the world of the dead being closer to us at this time and bonfires(bone-fires). Let me not leave out Jack o lanterns, of course, it's harder to carve turnips so nice fat pumpkins took their place.
It's funny. Christians are not alone in bemoaning Halloween. I've heard many the pagan complaining that Halloween as most know it is a terrible watered down mockery of something sacred. Go figure.
Oh, and thanks to both of you. This is the most interesting thing on the forum right now.

[MacPhantom]

It's funny. Christians are not alone in bemoaning Halloween. I've heard many the pagan complaining that Halloween as most know it is a terrible watered down mockery of something sacred. Go figure.

I've heard a lot of that as well, but it seems that in the case of pagans, it's more a result of identity crisis. I'm not knocking neo-paganism or Wicca, but as an "organized religion" practiced today, modern paganism has it's roots more in the mid to late 20th century. The practices are more Gardenarian than ancient, and the outcry about the sacredness of Halloween strikes me as a bit of a desire to jump on the bandwagon of righteous indignation in an attempt for recognition. Every Pagan I've ever met personally had grown up in a sect of Christianity, and every conversation I've had with a Pagan has reflected as much a rebellion against that upbringing as it did an observation of "the old ways". Christianity, in all its modern forms, is a religion that is 2000 years in the making, and it seems that Pagans feel that the key to having Wicca be on a equal footing with Christianity is to have a synthesis of equal longevity, when actually it's the number of followers that gains a religion widespread acceptance.

[NeverMore]

Nevermore, while I agree completely with your diagram's simplified differentiation between Science and Faith, I would caution that Faith and Religion are not entirely interchangeable words.

Oh... I believe in faith. I'm knocking religion.

[MacPhantom]

Nevermore, while I agree completely with your diagram's simplified differentiation between Science and Faith, I would caution that Faith and Religion are not entirely interchangeable words.

Oh... I believe in faith. I'm knocking religion.

Hmmmmm... Perhaps your diagram should say Science at the top on the left, and Dogmatic Religion at the top on the right...... That way, it's a bit more specific in its generalization...

[NeverMore]

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I didn't create it, I just grabbed it. Most people get the idea without taking it quite so literally.

[adrian]

thats true corvus samhain was one of the 3 days celebrated during hallowmas... Samhain meaning "summer's end" of course... it was the kick off really.. summer being the end of the pagan calender!
a lot of pagans DON'T like the americanized version of halloween because they believe its a stolen tradition from their sacred holidays.. you're definitely right
but we've done to halloween like we've done with santa claus to christmas hahaha we've taken something sacred and have commercialized it into more of a festivity/s of fun and excitement (economy has a lot to do with that)
but hey... that's pagan history, not mine lol i like the american Halloween i'm a mut i guess

[MacPhantom]

Oh, come on now. If you can photoshop Bella so she looks like Gene Simmons, surely you can change a single word in black and white?!

And I'm an over-analytical pussbag. I take everything literally, and pick it apart into as many little, tiny, obnoxious pieces as possible. Then I leave them scattered about like toenail clippings, hoping someone gets one caught in their sock.

[Corvus Kulde]

It's funny. Christians are not alone in bemoaning Halloween. I've heard many the pagan complaining that Halloween as most know it is a terrible watered down mockery of something sacred. Go figure.

I've heard a lot of that as well, but it seems that in the case of pagans, it's more a result of identity crisis. I'm not knocking neo-paganism or Wicca, but as an "organized religion" practiced today, modern paganism has it's roots more in the mid to late 20th century. The practices are more Gardenarian than ancient, and the outcry about the sacredness of Halloween strikes me as a bit of a desire to jump on the bandwagon of righteous indignation in an attempt for recognition. Every Pagan I've ever met personally had grown up in a sect of Christianity, and every conversation I've had with a Pagan has reflected as much a rebellion against that upbringing as it did an observation of "the old ways". Christianity, in all its modern forms, is a religion that is 2000 years in the making, and it seems that Pagans feel that the key to having Wicca be on a equal footing with Christianity is to have a synthesis of equal longevity, when actually it's the number of followers that gains a religion widespread acceptance.

You have hit it on the head. I cannot understand the need many pagans have to grow into a religion. Isn't that exactly what so many were trying to get away from? It's a favourite talking point for new pagans, and I laugh every time i hear some "little" witch complaining about Halloween or some vaguely pagan movie that offends their new sensibilities. Some are just trying to thumb their nose at their parents and end up moving on to other belief systems. I just want to whisper to them " Isn't there something in the rede about BEING SILENT about your ways. I recently went looking for a place to meet pagans in my area. The first thing i found was a giant web of sponsorship and paperwork. Nuts to that! I don't need a coven of Silver Ravenwolf worshippers telling me what to believe and who to vote for.
I like the fact that you guys talked this out instead of going "Fire-Troll" on one another. Good conversation.

[NeverMore]

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Gene Simmons !!!

If I alter every picture on the net I'll have to re-upload em. Next thing you know there's no space left on the internet. Everyone gets mad at me for taking the last empty space. No thanks! I'll just take my chances with you.